Success Is Not What You Think It Is: Lessons at 53 & 85

0:00 Teaser: what does success really mean?

Milton: I came from Hong Kong for college with 500 bucks from my family. That's it.

John: You can be successful if you don't get a degree. My definition of success is you have a purpose in your life and you treat others with kindness.

Milton: Nothing is hard once you figure out how to do it. 'Cause life is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't think you can get there, you'll never get there.

0:25 Welcome: how do we define success?

John: Welcome to Experience Matters, our next episode with Milton and John. Today we're going to talk about success. And success means a lot to different people, and we're going to dive into that topic pretty deep today. But before we get going, let's talk about why we are credible in speaking to this topic.

Milton: I feel like I'm an ordinary guy, and nothing particularly successful or not, because everything is a day's work.

0:52 Milton's journey: $500, Caltech and building companies

Milton: And I came from Hong Kong for college with 500 bucks from my family. That's it. So I worked my way through college, and I tell you, it was cold in Illinois. And I worked through the University of Illinois and graduated with the highest honor. And then I decided to go to graduate school. So I applied for MIT and Caltech. I got in both. And so I got a PhD from Caltech. And I'm a distinguished alum for having accomplished quite a bit. But I feel I'm an ordinary guy.

So I want to share my hard-earned experience in building two companies and taking them public. I joined a startup company after working at an aerospace company as a senior research scientist, and then I became the president of this company and took it public, in a sense, the startup company. And then along the way in my career, I've incubated probably no less than 20 companies as an angel investor, mentoring the CEO. And out of those, at least six, seven, eight companies went public. So I think I'm reasonably successful by that regard, by that definition.

On the other hand, I think what's really important for us is to feel good about ourselves, as a measure of success. It's really wellness, happiness and productivity, and a self-positive image.

John: Okay, that's a very impressive background. We're going to talk a little...

Milton: Oh yeah, tell me about yourself.

2:40 John's journey: Silicon Valley, family and entrepreneurship

John: Oh yeah, you've already done it. Thanks for asking. So, by the way, my background: I skipped my last year of high school. I went straight to college. I went to Caltech at that point. I jumped into Silicon Valley after graduating and worked on a number of interesting projects. The ones that I had the most fun with: I was an executive in the video game industry. We did a lot of fun work there. I'm actually going to draw from that experience to talk a little bit about how I approach life and some learning lessons there.

And then I'm currently a CTO of a behavior SaaS company, and I started a digital AI marketing company called CityBy. So I'm having a lot of fun with life. But more importantly, beyond my career, I've been married for almost 22 years. My kids are doing fine. And I have a good observational skill. So I think this is going to be a very fun conversation.

Milton: Yeah, since you mentioned that, it reminded me that I just celebrated my 60th anniversary with my wife. And I have two great, successful children. Both are successful entrepreneurs, built big companies and sold them. And I have six grandchildren, all very successful. One of them is going to be a medical doctor at the Mayo Medical School, and one is a pro golf player. So a variety of professions, but they're all good people.

John: I think what I want to emphasize a little from my perspective is I want to let it be known that you can be successful if you don't get a degree.

4:29 Success beyond money, titles and degrees

John: My definition of success is, and I'll start with mine and then we'll ask about yours: you have a purpose in your life, and you treat others with kindness, and you don't leave anything on the table in terms of effort, right? So you could be the best possible family person and you have a blue-collar job, and in my eyes you're just as successful as anybody else. And so I would love to hear, from your lens, what is your perspective on that?

Milton: Well, I think the most important definition of success is a positive self-image, derived from feeling you're doing the right thing, you're doing well. And so that's kind of a spiritual definition. It's not defined by wealth or power, but it's really feeling good about yourself. And that is really the most important thing. What if you make a trillion dollars by cheating people and by being really unkind to people? How do you really look at yourself in the mirror, you know, really, aside from rationalization?

John: So I appreciate that. One of the things that is often overlooked is obviously how you treat other people. But I think it starts with how you treat yourself, right? If you are kind to yourself and you have purpose, I think that actually helps you all with life. There is a statistic that there's a Silicon Valley CEO who has a daily affirmation. He writes it 100 times a day, and this is a billionaire CEO. He writes 100 times a day how he appreciates himself and how he approaches life, and he attributes his success to those daily affirmations. And that's why I think it should start with how you treat yourself, right? And I think you have a lens with that when you say having a positive attitude, right? That all stems from that.

Milton: Yeah. One of the future podcasts is really on health. And not bragging, at 85 I'm a pretty healthy guy, and pretty active and productive. And so I'd like to share some of my secrets. And one of the most important ones, you pointed out, is the mental attitude. It's a positive attitude. If you're depressed, you're not going to be healthy. And so it all began with a healthy body, healthy mind.

7:20 Building a successful career

John: Right. And then once you go from there, how do you approach it from a career standpoint? Can we talk a little bit about success and career? How do you look at that?

Milton: Yeah. Again, the healthy body and healthy mind begins with a positive self-image, right? So in terms of career, you want me to go into a little detail about how I got started and all that?

John: Well, I mean, yeah. What is your formula? What were your guiding principles in success, right? Like, you landed here in America with $500 in your pocket. You had to do something to get going, right?

Milton: Well, a lot of it is kind of set up for you, right? I mean, I had to work 20 hours to keep tuition. Oh, I actually have a tuition scholarship, but I have to eat, I have to pay rent. And so work hard and study hard: those are mandatory requirements. So I did that. And I don't think I was ever depressed, even though I don't have very much. I always have a positive side, because I have hope, because I know what I'm doing is going to lead me someplace.

I have to say, when I started, I don't think I want any more than just a regular job so I can have a comfortable living. But on the other hand, when I see graduate students going to graduate school and doing interesting research, I say, why shouldn't I? Then I wound up going to graduate school. So I keep moving up, but not really with a... Now, what I tell young people is: have a career goal, make up what you want to do, set up a road map and go for it. I wasn't sophisticated, because I didn't have perspective. But anyway, I always strive hard, always have a positive attitude towards this: there's a future if I work hard at it.

John: So that road map that you mentioned, that came after years and years of applying yourself.

Milton: Yeah. And now, looking in hindsight, had I had a goal initially, there would be less drifting, right? Because you're drifting, you don't know exactly where you want to go. So to me, now, when I talk about success, like how do you have a successful career, I have a much more clear insight of what I had to do.

As an example, I'll tell you a funny one. After I graduated from Caltech, I was doing really well as a senior research scientist at an aerospace company. I decided, you know, I'd like to try my hand at the stock market, because I was really good at it. So I interviewed at Merrill Lynch to become a broker.

John: Oh, wow.

Milton: And the interview went fabulously. Then at the end, the guy said, "Do you know what's the meaning of that word?" Hell, I don't know. [laughs] I didn't get a job. I'm glad I didn't get the job.

John: [laughs] So one thing that you had mentioned, and this is what people are going to come across, especially the younger kids: you're going to come across obstacles that will be potentially overwhelming to you, right? And I've noticed in my discussions with you, you have a way of overcoming those overwhelming obstacles. What do you do with that?

10:45 One bite at a time: overcoming big challenges

Milton: Well, I think the best example is my first tough job. I joined a startup company started by my college buddy, John Matthews. I was the seventh employee at his company. He said, "Milton, come join me as a good engineer." I said, "Wait a minute, I really prefer to be on the business side, like marketing and stuff." He said, "Great, it's yours." He's happy to do the design work. So I took on VP of marketing of a startup company, knowing nothing about business. Now, that's the big elephant you're trying to tell me to eat, right?

John: Yeah.

Milton: So what do I do? One bite at a time. Nothing is hard. I learn, I try, strive, I try hard, and I question what I did and improve, make continuous improvement. So for example, what do I know about advertisement? You know, I wound up creating every ad for the company. I hound every guy I can, everybody in the advertising business I can get my hands on, and learn from them. I go to the graphic arts designer and talk shop with him to know how to design ads. What's the problem? No big deal. Nothing is hard once you figure out how to do it, right?

John: But you had a humility, in that you were willing to learn.

Milton: Yeah.

John: So you had that intellectual curiosity, you had humility, and you were not overwhelmed with the challenge, right?

Milton: Yeah, you mentioned all the qualifications, all the steps you need to take. So I learned one thing at a time. But, you know, Newport is one of the really successful companies in the laser industry. We started with $150,000 capital and never raised money until we went public, right? And, you know, the secret of success as a CEO is that, even though I'm an engineer taking on marketing, I know every aspect of the company. I don't know about accounting, but I know what's essential about the job of the CFO. So when I sit down with that CFO, I know exactly what I need from him, what I can demand from him, and can have an intellectual discussion with him to guide him. The CEO has to know every aspect of the company. I know nothing about it, but I learned.

John: So if somebody's young in their career and they may not necessarily want to be a CEO, how would they apply this principle?

Milton: Very simple. Success goes with knowledge, the ability to get projects done. That's what success is all about. So you just got to be broadly knowledgeable. The breadth allows you to put something that happened here, to apply here, to solve a problem in a normal way. There's nothing new under the sun. It's really a combination that addresses the problem specifically, in an efficient way. So all you have to do is begin with an interest, take an interest in learning, and then be goal-oriented, because if you're not goal-oriented, you're drifting. And then set a long-term goal, an audacious long-term goal, and define the steps to get there, and then go for it. What else?

14:44 Kindness, empathy and what makes a great leader

John: So, switching topics a little bit, but still related to career and success, I want to share with you one of the observations that I had as a manager of a group. I was a general manager of a video game studio, and one of the things that I really liked to do was, I like to be kind and interact with all levels of the staff. There were almost 100 people reporting in my organization. And when I came to the lunchroom, I made sure to acknowledge the ladies preparing the sandwiches. I want to acknowledge the person four or five levels beneath me, because, you know, the CEO of Costco was a forklift driver. That person may have a great trajectory. But even if that wasn't the case, I like to think that kindness is infectious, and kindness shows a level of empathy.

And to the converse, during the time that I was active in Silicon Valley, a lot of folks were emulating aspects of Steve Jobs' personality, where he was known to be kind of abrasive and downright mean to a lot of his people. And there were a number of guys doing video game startups that actually had that persona. And what I will tell you is that people just did not want to work for him. His total trajectory collapsed because he just wasn't kind. And he was very talented. He knew what he was doing. He probably still made lots of money, but his total upside was capped. And that's just a simple law of just not being kind. And so, thoughts on that, on kindness and success?

Milton: Well, you know, when I came from Hong Kong, again, I had nothing. And, you know, there's a humility: everybody's better than me, honestly. And I'm aiming to please. And as I get older and more mature, I think being a nice guy is not enough to be a leader. So let me kind of shift here to say what is the definition of a good leader, including kindness, right? I think a leader, first of all, the first prerequisite: he's got to be really good at what he does. Never mind about Steve Jobs' personality. He is, by all definitions, very, very successful.

John: Yeah.

Milton: Okay? And so you have to be very good, first of all. If you're not very good, there's no reason for people to follow you. And with that, then, a leader has to demand excellence from everybody in the company. A leader has to be kind, like you said. If he's not kind, I don't like to work for you, no matter what. But being good at what you do, and being demanding of excellence from everybody, so that nobody is a laggy in the company: I think that's the essential quality.

That means, as I get older... in the beginning, I like to be liked, and as I get older, I like to be loved. Now I like to be respected. I don't care about like or love, because that's very fragile. But being respected is really important.

John: But I want to gently push back on... you're correct, like, if you're being kind to the point of being a pushover, that's not what I would recommend for young folks. I think you lead with kindness, but you also have boundaries, right?

Milton: Yeah. I mean, you set a standard of excellence.

John: Right, you lead. But I like to lead with kindness. With all that you have said: I've known you for almost two and a half decades now, and from the very first meeting, there was nothing you could have benefited from my relationship. However, you were always kind to me. You offered insight to me. You had nothing to gain. You didn't know what I was and who I was, but it was your kindness that stuck with me. I said, "You know what? If Milton needs something, I'm going to reciprocate."

Milton: Yeah, but don't forget, I came from a position of nobody. So everybody is above me. See, that's why I'm always humble.

John: But all right. And I did a little bit of research. I read Walter Isaacson's book on Steve Jobs, and a little bit about what he went through: a lot of friction and trauma, because he was fired by his own company. He had executives leave.

Milton: Yeah, I know.

John: And I'm guessing his abrasiveness could have led to that. He was a magician, and he was wonderfully visionary. I'm just saying that he...

Milton: He didn't have a good life.

John: Yeah, he limited where he could have gone. And I think, if there's somebody in their career looking to advance, you can do it in a kind way without being a pushover.

Milton: Well, given all the same, if he was kind, he would have a much better life.

John: Yes, yes, right. I absolutely agree. I think we had a great conversation on the aspect of kindness, but I want to get very tactical about careers. There are a number of things that are probably concerning people, given the state of the economy and how careers progress.

20:18 Advice for college graduates: build your brand

John: So let's start with the young men and women that are either in college or about to graduate college, and they're seeing interview opportunities dry up. How would you, Milton Chang, approach that?

Milton: Well, that's a very long subject, John. There are many things you have to do. It's not one-dimensional. There's no magic bullet. First of all, you have to build a brand. And generally, the brand for a college grad, in a sense, you can look at the brand as what the hiring manager looks at in you. They're looking at your grades, they're looking at your recommendations, they're looking at the kind of courses you took. So to me, then, to prepare yourself for a door opening in your career, I'd say you have to really study hard and get good grades and build a good reputation, network and so forth, because word gets around.

But more importantly, it's an attitude of learning. Take an interest in learning. Everything's so interesting once you learn something. Extrapolate, extrapolate, extrapolate. And then, let's see, I had it written down. Okay. So you have to build a brand in college, and then you have to decide what you want to do, set a long-term goal, and then pursue the subjects, the topics in that particular area. And then go find a job.

21:58 Reputation, networking and opening doors

John: So you touched on a topic that I actually have a lot to say about, and that is your reputation and networking, especially if you're young, if you can learn the skill set. You, Milton Chang, were part of the Caltech alumni group. You were fantastic about meeting and greeting people, making people feel welcome, building that relationship. So if you're a young person that's in college and you want to do it, my recommendation is: that's a subtle but extremely powerful skill to have. Make sure that your reputation is, if you say that you're going to deliver something, you always underpromise and overdeliver. Your reputation: that's the brand that you talk about. And then you also find ways of networking and networking. And you never know where things lead. You never know what opportunities open up. But that's probably opened so many doors for me: just being respectful to other people, acknowledging people, being helpful while expecting nothing in return. And things do return.

Milton: Yeah. Well, I mean, building a brand is really, by definition, reaching out and building relationships. So one of the things you want to do is not to close yourself off, but to reach out: join community projects, and participate and contribute. That's how you get to know people, and you build your brand.

23:38 Learning excellence: get really good at something

John: So the other thing, too, if you're a young person: can you give advice on what they should do to find things that interest them, right? A lot of times, if I'm speaking to the young folks, like my son's graduating, and the world is literally blue sky. It's really hard for him to focus on what's going to make him happy. Like, what would you do, Milton, if you had so many opportunities, so many things to look at? How would you focus that down?

Milton: Well, I don't know. I think anybody, at any one time, is interested in something. And so focus and completion is the thing. So, like, you know, I like bonsai, I like goldfish, I like tropical fish, right? It's not just doing it, but really getting good at it. And in the process, you learn what it takes to get really good at something. And then you extrapolate to something else. It's no longer about guppies or no longer about bonsai trees or something, but really it's about how to take on a project with intense interest and get to learn excellence.

John: So your gut told you that bonsai was something to pursue. Something told you to pursue bonsai, right? And so you learned to figure out how to trust your gut and proceed.

Milton: Well, I don't know. I mean, I would change the subject on that, in a sense. I took on bonsai simply because it's a very relaxing thing. I needed that for stressful work. But I think the point I want to make is that everybody has some interest in something. But learn how to get really good at that one thing that you're interested in at any one time, because you learn in the process how to get good at it. And that same knowledge of how to get good at it can be applied to other things you take on. The next thing you encounter that you like, you can go really far immediately, using what you learned before. So you just keep stepping up to different things.

I mean, would you think about building a business when you're in high school? No. But if you do each one of these things well, when it comes to building a company, you know what it takes to be excellent. Like I mentioned to you a number of times: when my son Michael came home, when he was about this tall, he had a lousy grade. I told him, "Hey, son, it's okay. Have fun. But you've got to get one grade, one A. Because once you know how to get one A, you know what it takes to be excellent." And that's what he did, and he's successful.

John: Very.

Milton: And he had fun in life, right? So I think learning how to be excellent in anything you do is the key to success.

26:44 Getting fired, laid off and starting over

John: So let's switch gears a little bit now and talk about mid-career folks. Okay? I have a story to tell, where I worked for a startup and I thought I was doing really, really well. And I've been fired and laid off many times, and it's a very humiliating experience. And a lot of people put their self-worth in what a company views you as, in the position. And a lot of times, either the company grows out of it, or you didn't fit that position.

And I want people to know: if you're mid-career and you get laid off, don't get depressed. I mean, you should process it and get it out. I've been on the side where I had to speak to a team and lay off the entire team, and it wasn't because they were bad performers. The company just ran out of money. And as a leader, that was one of the hardest things for me to do. And when people go through that, now they're thinking, "Well, I just invested 10-plus years in this company. They didn't value me. Should I switch careers? What should I be doing?" And so I wanted to talk a little bit about that. From your perspective, if people are switching careers, if they got laid off, what message do you have for them?

Milton: Well, that's a big question, because everybody got laid off for different reasons, and everybody processes difficulty differently. So I don't know how to answer that in a category way. Let me think a minute.

John: Can I say something that I think...

Milton: Yeah, maybe break it down to situations.

John: The way I would view that you would approach this would be just like any problem that Milton is presented with: you would not be overwhelmed by it. You would take inventory of your skill sets. Like, "I'm excellent at marketing. I'm excellent at spreadsheets. I'm excellent at whatever, but I'm not good at coding." So I'm going to take inventory of that, learn everything about what's available to me, what the job market looks like. So humble yourself, take inventory of yourself, and then from there you're in a position to make your next bet, right? You're now humbled, you're educated. This problem is not going to overwhelm me now. 'Cause I don't see you getting overwhelmed, 'cause you've dealt with some pretty heavy issues in your life, and it doesn't get you down.

29:26 Optimism, reinvention and overcoming setbacks

Milton: Yeah. Let me break it down to different parts to deal with it, okay? So the first question is: if I have a setback, how do I deal with it? To me, I'm an eternal optimist. And, you know, I look at a setback as something I've done. Maybe I did wrong, and I try to learn not to make the same mistake again. But I say, it's water under the bridge. There's nothing I can do about it. I learn from the mistake, aside from that, okay? And then I've got to reinvent myself, and I think of positive ways to come out of the hole. So I'm always positive, because I always see hope. Because it's not like dwelling on the past to put me down, but the hope that jacks me up.

And so I am an eternal optimist, because I think of the ways I can do it. When you encounter a project, be it starting a company or starting a project or whatever, most people begin with, "Oh my God, all these problems, I can never do it," basically. I don't. I think of, yeah, these are the problems, but let me think of... it's kind of fun to think of ways to overcome those problems. And that's how I overcome and become positive. So that's a little piece of the comment back to you. But you can break it down a little bit more. I can address each one, like, if I lose my job...

John: So first of all, if you got laid off, let's just talk about a very specific situation. I worked for a company for a number of years, and I just got laid off, and I feel humiliated and I feel depressed. What do I do?

Milton: Well, first of all, I think you should be depressed for a little while. But identify the reason why you were laid off, and sit down with the manager. You know: "Hey, I understand you had to do what you had to do, but please help me. What is it that I did wrong, or how could I do right, to not make the same mistake again?" I think, in that sense, not water under the bridge, but a retrospective to improve is really essential.

John: And many times you've done nothing wrong. The company just ran out of money.

Milton: I know, I know. Then you say, "Okay, not my fault. Let me move on," right? And so then the second question is: why do I work for a stupid company that's not going to make it? [laughs] Right? I mean, most people just want a job. They don't think about it. Or they take a job that's pretty routine in nature, and they find out they're replaced by AI. So therefore, look for a job that requires critical thinking.

So in some sense, your project at hand at this point is to look for another job. And what is it that you need to define the next job you want, that fits your strengths and overcomes, or oversees, or neglects your weaknesses? And then, what career has more of a future? You know, think long-term, have a vision of that job, and then go for it.

32:51 Finding your next opportunity in the age of AI

Milton: So, okay, that job needs a special degree. How do I get that special certification to get that job? So on and so forth. So identify what it takes to get the job you want, and then go get it.

John: I wanted to add on to what you're saying. In the case that I just got laid off from company A, or, there's even a case where I'm working at company A and I see my position ending. Like, something's happening to company A, they're not healthy or whatever, or I've gotten notice from my manager that I'm not going to be there any longer. Then I'll set my sights on company B, and company B has everything that I want. It actually excites me. It makes me happy to do that type of work for company B.

The way I would do it is: you can go to LinkedIn and find people that work there, or find people in your network, or grow your network, so that I can say, "Hey, Milton, I know you work for company B. Do you think you can introduce me to the hiring manager?" That happens all the time. Right now, because of AI, AI is writing the resumes and AI is reviewing the resumes. So now you have AI fighting each other to get you an opportunity. The way to shortcut that is to get through to a manager through your network, so that you can get that interview. That's what I've learned to do.

And there's one other secret I learned. This is how I broke into the video game industry. I had no business being in the video game industry, except I found a smaller video game company that was willing to take a chance on me with no prior work history. But I just created a video game from whole cloth. I gave a full design spec, everything. And it cost me a little bit to figure out how to do it, and I did it, and they're like, "Okay, I'll give you a chance." And then once I was in, I grew, and then I found my company B from there. And you can kind of grow from there. So those are some of the learning lessons, some tips or tricks that I had that allowed me to kind of move and progress in my career.

Milton: Yeah, I think it's tenuous to provide specific examples, but rather in a more category, generalized way. The generalized way is that when you have a lemon, you make lemonade. And sit down with your manager, who's already feeling really bad that he had to fire you or lay you off. Sit down: "Hey, tell me what I did right, what I did wrong. How would you rate me? How would you recommend me if somebody comes to you for a reference check? Do you have a company you can recommend me to?" Sort of turn that into a slight positive, because it's so easy for him to slam the door and you say goodbye. Okay, but do what you can. And the second one, summarizing what you said, is being very strategic in what you can do: identify what area you want to get into, and then go for it. Do everything possible to get the job.

36:27 Why setbacks are temporary

John: Yeah. And then the last thing, and the reason I'm looking at it from the lens of somebody that just got laid off: I want people to understand you might be depressed, but over all my years, these problems eventually pass. Like, you'll get through it.

Milton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John: It's all temporary. Don't get too hung up on just any one opportunity.

Milton: Yeah, don't get depressed.

John: That everything will work out. It's all in a day's work. Yeah, that was a wonderful conversation we just had. We touched on a lot of points. Just so that we can wrap this up, let's each take a minute to talk about some of the most important takeaway points from this conversation that we can leave with the audience. You want to start?

36:57 Final lessons: define success and go get it

Milton: Well, I think the point I want to make is: always be decisive in terms of defining what is success, what's the most meaningful thing to you. And then, once you decide on that, then decide how you get there, right? So life is a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you decide you can get there, have a very positive attitude. Think of the ways that you can get there, because life is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't think you can get there, you'll never get there. So define success and find the ways to get there, and get it.

John: So my takeaway is very similar to yours, and that is: your attitude of believing in yourself, not getting overwhelmed, will actually take you very, very far. If you feel like life is happening not to you, but life is happening for you or with you, then everything that happens, you can have a positive spin on it, and you can get through it. And so for me, that's the number one thing: if you have a vision that your life is going to work out, and you have a vision for its success, you can see it through.

Milton: Yeah. But I think when you ask me what is success, basically I'm saying you need to establish your baseline: what's the meaning of success to you? And then go beyond that if you like. But that is the baseline you want to accomplish to be successful. And to me, it's feeling good about yourself, a positive self-image, feeling that you're making a worthwhile contribution to society and to mankind, to your family, to your everything. That is the baseline. Anything above that, wealth, power, whatever, is additional. But that is the basis to achieve. Then you always have the happy baseline.

John: Okay.

Milton: Well, it's spiritual.

John: It is. Everything ties back to that. Well, thank you for this conversation.

Milton: Well, thank you for being a co-host. We had a lot of fun today.